round back lifting

[bob -p-]

Regarding the round back good morning and round back Romanian deadlift is there any focus on scap position when you allow the lower back to round?? Or like the normal deadlift are you still focusing on retraction and depression of the scapular?

You sometimes hear that round back lifting is dangerous or more likely to cause injury than lordotic lifting. I understand from reading Ian’s work that this is a trend or overreaction however is it better to keep the load lighter than in the normal deadlift with a neutral or controlled lower back / pelvis position?

Thanks

Bob

[Ashleigh]

Hello Bob,

Regarding the round back good morning and round back Romanian deadlift is there any focus on scap position when you allow the lower back to round?? Or like the normal deadlift are you still focusing on retraction and depression of the scapular?

during the GM and RDL, focus on balance and improving the range of motion you get during the lift. Prioritize the focus on balance and gluteal activation as opposed to scapular retraction/depression.

You sometimes hear that round back lifting is dangerous or more likely to cause injury than lordotic lifting. I understand from reading Ian’s work that this is a trend or overreaction however is it better to keep the load lighter than in the normal deadlift with a neutral or controlled lower back / pelvis position?

If you pay attention to this, then you will hear it - what has your lifting experience to date taught you about this?

Thanks!
Ashleigh

[bob -p-]

Hi Ashleigh

Thanks for your feedback

What about the round back good morning and romanian dead lift when performed bilaterally with more load? Does scap control mirror the importance of scapular control in the normal bent knee dead lift?

Understand in uni lateral exercises load is drastically reduced but when load starts to increase like for example 85% 1 rm is that when scapular control becomes important.

If it is safe to use round back lifting is it not as solid as lordotic when loads are near to 100% 1 rm? I have seen world strongest men perform very heavy stone lifts with a rounded lower back and no scapular control as the shape of the stone prevents retraction and depression.

I realise however just because they can do it doesn’t mean it is wise to do so.

Haven’t seen Ian prescribe any round back lifting at heavier loads which I realise doesn’t mean he doesn’t do it just I have not seen it. Really appreciate your feedback Ashleigh.

[Ashleigh]

Hello Bob,

What about the round back good morning and romanian dead lift when performed bilaterally with more load? Does scap control mirror the importance of scapular control in the normal bent knee dead lift?

The emphasis on scapular control during the GM and RDL is different than in the DL - however this may vary for an individual depending on program design considerations. Bilateral, unilateral, heavy or light load.

What have you found in your own training using these lifts?

If it is safe to use round back lifting is it not as solid as lordotic when loads are near to 100% 1 rm? I have seen world strongest men perform very heavy stone lifts with a rounded lower back and no scapular control as the shape of the stone prevents retraction and depression.
I realise however just because they can do it doesn’t mean it is wise to do so.

What do mean by 'solid as lordotic' - Ian's teachings have nothing to do with a lordotic posture.

World strong men have adapted to lifting styles over years and years - not good or bad, just how it is.

Form your own conclusions based on your experiences lifting.

Thanks!
Ashleigh

[bob -p-]

Hi Ashleigh
Sorry for the delay in replying to your post and thank you very much for replying to me.

Understand now regarding scap control being different in the round back lifts compared to the normal deadlift . Also that was an error in my post I understand that Ian’s deadlift is a controlled neutral lower back compared to lordotic or kyphotic .

Yes it seems if you are sensible and progressive with load than any movement is safe even so called unsafe lifts or movement patterns. I remember hearing somewhere that bending and twisting is bad for the back and you shouldn’t do it but then I see another educator teaching that very movement with light weights and controlled lifting to strengthen the very so called unsafe movement pattern.

It seems to me that the only movement patterns/lifts /exercises that are unsafe are those that are not shown respect regarding loading or technique.

The reason for my post on round back lifting is I started practising a new exercise Romanian deadlift off blocks so I take the bar off my laces (increased range of motion) and lift keeping the bar next to my skin the whole time .My head is kept aligned with my spine (i.e.) looking down at end of eccentric and I just round over with not much focus on scapular control / position. This lift was described in an old exercise book I have published well before the recent round back lifting is bad phase.
The thing that is puzzling me is I stretch extensively before I train about 2 hours plus for lower body to get the length and range I want. My neck was stretched also and I have quite a strong neck from various types of bridging over the years plus the flexibility is good on both sides. I also self massage a lot to keep optimal tension) (for me that is)
I used a load of about 75% 1RM for 3 sets of 12 reps (step loaded)
Everything was fine but the next day my neck was badly pulled???

Not sure why?

Thinking maybe I should of kept my head up through out but then again when I watched my Get Buffed DVD I did see Ian round over with his head looking down compared to looking up the whole time.

I don’t want to pull my neck again so any suggestions on how to find the problem so I can practise this exercise safely is much appreciated Ashleigh.

Thanks very much .

Rob

[Ashleigh]

Hi Rob,

you are very welcome, glad you have personal experience to speak from now.

so I take the bar off my laces (increased range of motion)

Have you done this lift before, using this range of motion?

My neck was stretched also and I have quite a strong neck from various types of bridging over the years plus the flexibility is good on both sides. I also self massage a lot to keep optimal tension) (for me that is)
I used a load of about 75% 1RM for 3 sets of 12 reps (step loaded)
Everything was fine but the next day my neck was badly pulled???

How long did you stretch your neck for prior to training, and for what time period (days, weeks, months, etc) have you been stretching your neck? How are you stretching it?

What speed of movement were you using for the lift?

With your own answers to above, what are some possible reasons your neck felt the way that it did the next day?

Thanks,
Ashleigh

[bob -p-]

Hi Rob,

you are very welcome; glad you have personal experience to speak from now.
Quote:
So I take the bar off my laces (increased range of motion)


Have you done this lift before, using this range of motion?

No that is why I kept the load low I have done round back good mornings but thinking about it when I do them I am retracting and depressing my scapular holding the bar behind my neck and rounding the lower back.

Thinking about it when doing the stiff leg deadlift variations some possible permutations are:
1- Lordotic lumbar retracted and depressed scap
2- kyphotic lumbar and kyphotic thoracic
3- lordotic lumbar and kyphotic thoracic
4- kyphotic lumbar and retracted and depressed scap

I am sure there are many more especially if you include Ian’s neutral controlled lumbar position
Maybe the kyphotic thoracic over stretched my neck muscles as this is the only permutation that has caused me a problem (ie) round back good morning with same range don’t pull my neck this could be due to the retracted and depressed scap position (i.e.) not over stretching the neck /shoulder muscles.
Plus when holding a weight like in the dead lift with rounded shoulders would increase the potential stretch in the neck / shoulder muscles.

Thing is a lot of people do this exercise with a lot heavier weight than me without problem all I can conclude is either they are doing it differently or my biomechanics / muscle length and tension relationships are not optimal for this lift.

Quote:
My neck was stretched also and I have quite a strong neck from various types of bridging over the years plus the flexibility is good on both sides. I also self massage a lot to keep optimal tension) (for me that is) I used a load of about 75% 1RM for 3 sets of 12 reps (step loaded) Everything was fine but the next day my neck was badly pulled???


How long did you stretch your neck for prior to training, and for what time period (days, weeks, months, etc) have you been stretching your neck? How are you stretching it?

What speed of movement were you using for the lift?

I spent 20 minutes just on my neck including joint mobility, massage and stretching. I use dynamic joint mobility and static methods including PNF. I have been stretching my neck like this for over a year now.

Speed of movement was 4.2.2

With your own answers to above, what are some possible reasons your neck felt the way that it did the next day?

I have been thinking and the above are some reasons any feedback about my findings is much appreciated Ashleigh.

Thank you very much.

Rob

[Ashleigh]

Hi Rob,

Maybe the kyphotic thoracic over stretched my neck muscles as this is the only permutation that has caused me a problem (ie) round back good morning with same range don’t pull my neck this could be due to the retracted and depressed scap position (i.e.) not over stretching the neck /shoulder muscles.
Plus when holding a weight like in the dead lift with rounded shoulders would increase the potential stretch in the neck / shoulder muscles.

Perhaps - only you will know with time whether your theory is true. If your exposure to this lift performed in this manner is new your neck may have gone through a bit of an adjustment period.

Thing is a lot of people do this exercise with a lot heavier weight than me without problem all I can conclude is either they are doing it differently or my biomechanics / muscle length and tension relationships are not optimal for this lift.

Other people will have different challenges than you - good conclusion for you now, looking to create more optimal length/tension would be a priority.

Keep testing and forming your opinion.

Thanks Rob!
Ashleigh

[bob -p-]

Thanks Ashleigh

Really appreciate all your time and help regarding my round back question. I will take on board what you have shared and get busy finding out how to solve the problem through my own experimentation.

Cheers

Rob